Our guide for today on this journey of communal actualization is Saad Choeiter, a doctor of osteopathic medicine and a movement therapist, that prefers to use his hands rather than a scalpel as his healing tool of choice.
I want to set the stage for this interview by shining the spotlight on three main points of focus for our dialogue.
1. About Saad and his unique human journey.
2. Introduce you to a form of treatment, to actively heal physical elements that is at times overshadowed by our current medical, industrial complex.
3. Provide you the listener with tools to be proactive in either healing or preventing said physical elements.
Reach out to Saad at:
Instagram @kinetic_cloud
Website www.kin-cloud.com
Reach out to broadband at:
Instagram @broadband.podcast
Email aziz@seedsmedia.org
Reach out to luucid at:
Instagram @luucidkw
Website luucidkw.com
For guest recommendations Email hello@luucid.co
Our guide for today on this journey of communal actualization is Saad Choeiter, a doctor of osteopathic medicine and a movement therapist, that prefers to use his hands rather than a scalpel as his healing tool of choice.
I want to set the stage for this interview by shining the spotlight on three main points of focus for our dialogue.
1. About Saad and his unique human journey.
2. Introduce you to a form of treatment, to actively heal physical elements that is at times overshadowed by our current medical, industrial complex.
3. Provide you the listener with tools to be proactive in either healing or preventing said physical elements.
Reach out to Saad at:
Instagram @kinetic_cloud
Website www.kin-cloud.com
Reach out to broadband at:
Instagram @broadband.podcast
Email aziz@seedsmedia.org
Reach out to luucid at:
Instagram @luucidkw
Website luucidkw.com
For guest recommendations Email hello@luucid.co
Can't Stop, Don't Stop Moving - Humans In Motion
Fitness with Saad
Introduction of broadband and saad [00:00:00] aziz: Hello, and welcome to broadband here at broadband, we live by the idea that I am because we are, and that one needs other human beings to teach them how to be human our guide for today on this journey of communal actualization is saad. Shall I tell a doctor of osteopathic medicine and a movement therapist who prefers to use his hands rather than a scalpel as a healing tool of choice.
Now, I want to set the stage for this interview by shining the spotlight on three main points for our dialogue. The first being saad, and his unique human journey. Next, I want to introduce to you a form of treatment to actively heal physical ailments that is at times overshadowed by our current medical industrial complex. And finally, I want to provide you the listener with tools to be proactive in either healing or preventing set physical ailments without further ado.
Hello, sad.
saad: Hi, thank you very much for inviting Happy summer to
aziz: I'm glad that you can make it.
Saad Early life Child hood [00:00:56]I want to start this dialogue by learning about your early life, who was sad growing up as a young boy in France.
saad: Sad was chubby little boy that didn't do any sports. Didn't eat any healthy, before the age of maybe 13 . Luckily, I'm from a family where everyone is in the health field. Everyone is kind of, active. So I got hooked pretty early in the martial arts and fighting sports.
So I started , boxing at the age of, 13. I did some martial arts on the side. I got up very early in school competitions. So we had to do some diets. So very early, I had to learn how to. That's on my food, how to look at what I was , eating to be careful about, you know, my training and everything. So actually, as far as I remember, like being a teenager, I spent a lot of time trying to, you know , read about training or like find ways to, you know, to get better results. And also what to eat when to eat. Obviously my first diets and my first trainings were pretty awful when I think about it, but that's what we could do, about like what, 15 years ago.
What shaped your career [00:02:06] aziz: And then it's it's trial, it's trial and error for the most part, you know, and, and I think most people, unfortunately learned that the hard way. But you said that you were surrounded by people that are active or in the health industry. Was that kind of what shaped your, your career or your dream as a career? Being a strength and conditioning coach.
saad: No one in my family was really into like, competitive sports, but more doctors. I have some traditional Chinese medicine therapists in my family, like a pharmacist people working in chemistry, people working , as nurses, people working as, especially doctorate special fields. So I got to have this , I think this is what got me hooked in the health field more than , sports in general.
So I think it helped me a lot in the choice of my studies, and I had basically two choices, which is medical school. Or something else. And I didn't know what was it, something else? At that time, I was doing a lot of sports. I used to, go out there a lot. I wanted to discover the world. I come from a very small town, so it was also the opportunity for me to go live in a bigger city.
So very quickly I, I turned myself towards a sports science university. So, joined there, studied in digital, the mustard city, as people I'm going to tell you, you know what, it's fun, fun. They don't make mustard there.
aziz: No way don't spoil it for me.
saad: Yeah.
So yeah, I studied there for four years. Then I created my own company to do personal training . And after that I got an offer to come and work in Kuwait. And I really got hooked with the, whole physical therapy, osteo, injury prevention, rehab, world.
So I started reading books. I started like taking small courses. I started really like trying to learn to be more, tried to talk to people in the field. So after that , maybe two years later I started my, DUI doctorate in osteopathy. And, and I'm finishing it now and starting the practice
Osteopathy [00:04:13] aziz: So I want us to talk about the practice of osteopathy for the people that don't know what it is now, a lot of people are familiar with strength and conditioning. They know what a coach does for the most part. Yeah. They probably worked with a personal trainer before, but a lot of people don't even know what an osteopath is. So what is osteopathy?
saad: So first of all, there is two kinds of, osteopath. There is the American term osteopath, which is a medical doctor performing minor surgeries, which I am not. And there is the Canadian and European. Style of osteopathy, which is what you can say, manual osteopathy, which is basically hand on treatment.
So basically what osteopathy ease is that it's a way to treat the body by seeing it as a whole thing, by taking under consideration multiple things in a way that, okay, you got shoulder pain, let's look how your spine is moving, how your hips are moving or.
How your ho how's your guts, how's your digestive system going? How's your stress level and everything. So it's. Yeah.
So for me, how, when I studied it, I see it as a tool. So when I studied, I just realized that I think , Western, Allsteel path, just to. Eventually Eastern and more holistic practices and trying to explain them by science. And whenever they manage to explain things by science, they just added to the scope of osteopathy.
Osteopathay brief intro (which parts oeteopathy covers most) [00:05:44] aziz: One of the questions that I had coming into this is what part of the body does osteopathy cover the most? You know, what are you spending most of your time in the sessions? And what you're saying is you look at the body as a whole, and you know, you can even support people with digestion issues and anxiety, problems with like manipulating the body.
So that's, I guess something that I just learned just by you saying that brief intro just now.
Specialization in Osteopathy [00:06:11]
saad: And that's the thing is I do not want to keep myself. I don't want to put myself in one case of being an osteo or being a strength, conditioning coach or being a rehab coach. But I see those as tools and everything as a toolbox and in a way that you come to me and you tell me, look, I've got low back pain and I am a cyclist. How can you help me and maintaining my training? And at the same time, get rid of my back pain. And my job is to actually find the strategy to treat you with hands-on treatments, to show you certain exercises, go over certain sessions, or I can teach you how to, for example, change something in your lifestyle where you're training, just to overcome that. And also understand the mechanism because I think one of the most important thing that, that we should do as professionals is make people understand. Because as the first question, people are telling me people that have been in pain for a while. They're like, but why what's going on with my shoulder?
What's going on with my neck? I don't understand. I've done everything, stretch shit. I get massage and everything, but I don't understand what's going on. And I think taking time to understand, to explain. People why they have pain and what's going on actually gives them a really, really good advantage in overcoming and not fearing the pain.
And sometimes I would spend literally half an hour explaining, not, not giving them a biology or physiology class or lecture, but just trying to make it as simple as possible. And also make them understand that I think like, besides making them understand what's going on with their injury, also making them understand that and that's for me, but there is one message I want to give people in general that are in pain.
They hear that minor pain or severe pain is pain. Doesn't always equal damage. It's not because you are in pain, that something is broken. Something is, bleeding inside. Some something is dying. No. Pain is an alarm given by your nervous system telling you, Hey, yo, there is something going on there. You need to check it because I sense a danger and the problem is the nervous system can be wrong.
And, you know, when the nervous system gets very wrong, when the nervous system is tired, when the nervous system is overworked, when your lack of sleep, when you don't eat well, when you have, when you're highly anxious, like all those things create an environment where your nervous system, basically you're, a danger sensor becomes dysfunctional.
Active vs Passive Treatments [00:08:49]aziz: Okay. So I want to play devil's advocate. Can one make the claim that osteopathy and the, active approach to the treatment is superior to the passive treatment that you may get from the doctor's office.
saad: I think it's better because first of all, you're empower people and as something very important, second thing, I think it's better because you put responsibility in people's hands. Third thing I think is better because you drag people into being more active and that's something that's very important for general health. And the last thing is you educate people. Passive treatment is you laying on the table and sometimes that's what you need. Like sometimes you need it. I mean, it happened to me that I had a patient coming in and just needing passive treatment and I'm like, okay, you know what? You know, your buddy seems like there's nothing wrong.
There's nothing wrong. It just did something bad. Didn't warm up properly unit passive treatment. Now only relying on that to me, it's just being a very incomplete. Treatment is giving you a temper temporary relief, just not guiding you towards something more healthy.
My ultimate win with patients is someone comes to me as a very passive person. They started doing sessions with me. And we started doing more and more exercises. We start implementing small habits in the lifestyle. And after a while, they realized that there are no longer patients they're athletes and they start working out more. They start working out better and start being more active,
and I think. Well, it mixing active and P like adding active treatment to passive treatment exercises to, hands-on treatment, allows people to manage their pain more than being managed by their pain. And for me, this is a real game changer.
aziz: That's huge. So people to manage their pain rather than be managed by their team. That's a really cool way of phrasing. And, you know,
Millennials vs Gen Z in Treatments [00:10:42]
This kind of reminds me of a recent moment that I had at the doctor's office with my mom. So my mom has, what's been diagnosed as frozen shoulders. So it's really stiff. It's really painful.
So we made an appointment, you know, naturally with a doctor at a hospital, instead of going into osteopath first, which is, I guess, our bad and, you know, he gives her, a steroid and a cortisone shot. Right.
You know, so I told my mom right in front of the doctor and I was like, listen, he's going to give you an anti-inflammation juice. That's what cortisone is. It's not going to fix anything. In a few months, you're going to come back. It's probably going to give you another dose of anti-inflammation juice and you're not like strengthening your shoulder, which is what you need, to be doing and you need to be working on mobility.
And she got the shot anyways. And I guess the question I have is have you noticed a difference between millennials and gen Z and baby boomers regarding how they view osteopathy or holistic treatment or active treatments versus going to the doctor and just getting that shot?
saad: I think like boomers, generations, most physio or osteo were really very, very oriented towards , passive treatment. Why? Because also boomers were people that were, that were way more active than millennials.
And you know, I'll tell you like the fun fact is I got to work with people that are above 70 years old. Okay. And I sometimes see that they have motor patterns, which is their ability to move in space that is more developed than certain 22 year old people I worked with.
if I want to put it in other words, if let's say you have, I read somewhere that there is eight type of intelligence and one of the, the intelligence is the motor intelligence, your ability to be a smart mover. And seeing that those people from the older generation develop this intelligence and the people from the new generation are, dumb movers.
Because as much as we are smart and we know about technology and everything, we move less and less. this is something and I think that's why the job as physio, osteo or Cairo has been merging with strength and conditioning coach within the past few years, because there is a need, people didn't need someone to tell them to move before.
Now they need so much tell them. When was the last time you reached overhead? When was the last time you just try to catch something just above your head. And some people will tell you, I don't know. I don't do that. You know, I don't know. I'm just, you know, office, home, TV, Netflix, and this is sad and I'm not even, I'm not the kind of old people,
Sedentary Lifestyle [00:13:05]aziz: Young people. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing is you mentioned that it's, that a lot of people were just sedentary and that was built into the culture and that's obviously sure the environment has something to do with it, but then the fact that we have the internet and, you know, people have, you know, some change to spend on a really nice TV and a really nice set up at home.
All they want to do is just kind of. Lounge around and just kind of be lazy and, you know, they get their workout or their active time, maybe for an hour, maybe two hours a day tops. And that's going to the gym, maybe working with you, maybe lifting some weights, but they don't actually work on mobility. You know, they don't actually work on bending, getting active and moving the body.
saad: . I always like to give those habits to two people, just try, to walk as much as possible because it's, to me it's just sad that we have to tell people that we have, that we need to have an Apple watch or a Fitbit or whatsoever to tell us great job.
you've walked 10,000 steps. You're a human being, you know what I mean?
Walking patterns [00:14:05] aziz: Okay. So now that we're talking about walking, do you ever start noticing random people's like gay patterns and be like, Ooh, that person they're going to have some serious, lower back problems in three to four years. Do you ever do
saad: So I do, and for my job, we need to, you know, analyze this movements. So now there is, two types of things you can, there is actual pathological gaits patterns, but this shows that you have a pathology already going on and there is, something you can see on people the way they walk.
However, we like, it's a very seductive idea to think. That's okay. They're going to have issues later on. However, unfortunately the actual science, the actual research hasn't been proving that there is anything , that directly correlates, the gait pattern or even posture to injuries or, Pain actually, I would, because technically, we tend to naturally to think, okay, if you always got like rounded shoulders and everything you see it wrong and you walk a certain way, you're going to get injured. The thing is the human body, when you know a little bit about it is such a crazy. Machine that have an incredible capacity of adopting everything.
So it just depends on how your body adapts and you see people leaving their entire life with a very awkward posture and never getting in pain. You see people having super rounded shoulders. being old curve, looking like a cashew, never having any kind of thing.
this is currently a very big subject of research for all , physical therapy and sports science, field. There's a lot of research going on. There is a lot of theories. There's a lot of people treating it. And I think this is really good because I don't want to say There is a factor. I don't want to say, if you walk in a weird way, you're going to get injured. I personally believe it has it's important.
Now I would say it has maybe a certain small percentage of, COEs in your potential pain or injury. Now I'm saying that it's the CO's that. Walking a certain way or standing a certain way would be the one and only cause of your pain?
I don't think so.
aziz: Interesting. I mean, I would think that it, you know, it's 2020, they've done enough research to at least find a correlation between poor posture or or pathological gait patterns. And physical ailments, but so that's mind blowing that there isn't a correlation or they haven't yet found a correlation.
Poor Postures And Their Side Effects [00:16:28]
saad: So the having poor posture or working a certain way with create eventually imbalances in your body in a way that certain muscles, we would be overwhelmed compared to the others. And this eventually, might lead to certain pain, there was no direct cause
aziz: And that also kind of ties back to what you said earlier that now a lot of strength and conditioning coaches also are physical therapists and osteopaths because a lot of people work out, I guess, by looking at YouTube or reading a magazine and they, you know what, I really like the way Arnold's watching Edgar's chest looks, I'm training nothing by chest.
And then all of a sudden, now they have. Imbalances and they need someone like you to come in, who actually knows osteopathy or, a good physical therapist and can actually fix these imbalances. That is making a lot of sense to me now.
saad: It does the thing. And that was the thing, because a lot of people tend to. train everything on YouTube, on Instagram. And I found it really good because you got to start somewhere. You know, I always tried to push people to, be more , self driven by training. Not only relying on having a personal trainer or having a, or joining a class or anything, but also being. Capable of doing exercises or training, like just going for a run by themselves.
Now again, it's really, once you go in that field, it's a really, really, really deep field. And like, if you, want to talk about pollster, just wanting to mention technically there is no poor posture or right posture. Because if I tell you now to stand up straight with a straight back. Without moving, whether you're in a perfectly aligned and your eyes going 90 degrees and to just sit like that till the end of the podcast, I can guarantee you you're going to have back pain at the end of the podcast.
And actually I think instead of, and really one of the messages I want to get, I want to tell people is instead of looking at how use it, how you stand, just look at. Just think of that. The, real problem is not the way you sit or the way you stand with the fact that you're sitting, that you're being passive, that you're, you're being an auction. The real problem is lack of movements.
It's not the way people are trying to find, you know, Oh, look, if you see that way, or if you sleep with that pillow, or if you put that under your back, when you see through, when you sleep, you're going to be fine. I'm sorry. That's not going to happen. I'm really sorry.
aziz: That's a good wake up call and it's not the fact that you have poor posture while he's sitting. It's the fact that you're sitting,
saad: Like you can see that, you know, on Instagram also, or in books that they say sitting is the new smoking,
50% of people would be out of thing just by, I think walking at least 10,000 steps a day. Takes also time. Like people should understand that it takes a little bit of practice and a bit of discomfort because if for 10, 15 years you haven't been doing more than 3000 steps per day, going to 10,000 steps per day will be a challenge
Osteopaths recomended workouts (yoga pilates etc) [00:19:20]
aziz: I guess another question I had is is there like a workout that osteopaths usually recommend? Is it like yoga, Pilates, whatever.
saad: I would say you can do, you can get excellent outcomes out of weightlifting and awful outcomes out of yoga, and you can get awful outcomes out of weightlifting and amazing outcomes out of yoga. I would say it all depends on I I'm not even sure if I said that, it's really how you train. It's not what you're doing. It's how you train.
I would honestly advise people to go for , an actual coach. Not necessarily personal training, but try to reach out a quality gym around you. Try to take it step by step. Don't try to throw yourself in those like high intensity interval training that promise you to lose, to burn whatever fats you can have.
Just try to learn things. And I think this is one of the big problem in our field is there is way too much marketing and not enough teaching in a way that. If you really want to get fit, you should learn something like if you want to get into Pilatos learn Pilat is like, be good at it. Don't try to just say, Oh, I want to work at my core because I want to have a six-pack.
take it in a way that I want to learn peel out is I want to be good at it. I want to master the poses, do the same with yoga the same with running don't run. Cause you want to burn the Apple pie you had. Run because you want to be better runner and you want to increase your stamina. you want to have a better, shape. you want to be more performance.
aziz: And that kind of feeds into, I guess, the philosophy that I started the introduction with in the idea that for me to be human, I need to learn from other humans exactly how to be, right. So, I mean, if you want to be an master of Pilates, you need to. Find that community of masters of Pilates or, other people that aspire to be masters of Pilates and learn as an individual and as a group.
So that's something that, that I guess a person like me that likes to do things his own way and likes to do things on his own, is something that I didn't really learn growing up,
saad: yeah, definitely. And I think, it's also more empowering, more motivating to reach out to group and for the long-term you get more hooked. you no longer say, yeah, just go to the gym and I just try to burn calories, but no, I'm learning a craft. I'm learning a new skill. I'm becoming better at something
aziz: okay. So, .
Monetizing the fitness world [00:21:43] You mentioned something a little bit, earlier about not wanting to be industrialists in the fitness world. Do sports clinics and fitness centers currently see clients as, paychecks.
saad: I don't want to generalize. I think some, do, some clinics, some professionals do. Unfortunately a majority that are like that.
and I understand why because when you start off as a young. Coach or a young therapist, you're always afraid that you might not have enough. I would say clients or patients to actually make a living and I can understand why people are trying to do as much as possible and try to get as many people as possible because we are being sold. The idea that. You need a certain amount of people that comes for you to make a decent living.
Now I think, I always try to tell to my, friends that are in the same field or fresh grads from sports science , don't try to have as many clients as possible. Try to be extremely good at what you're doing.
And if you're good at what you're doing, people are going to look for you. And as long as there is people that have back pain, you will have to put the actual clientele And you don't need to try to oversell to people. You don't need to try to retain people.
aziz: I guess that's something that we take for granted is now, like you said earlier, is people just want to find their financial freedom, but in that pursuit of financial freedom in this pursuit for money, they forget about the humans that they interact with throughout the way.
And they can learn from what the journey and the community they can build.
So that's a really, really cool message to share with what would the audience ,
Sold Or Not Sold Game: Reflexology [00:23:16]
You mentioned earlier that, osteopathy, the way you described osteopathy as kind of the bridge between the Western and the holistic, you know, the Western and the East, and they find each other in osteopathy. So if you don't mind, I want to play a game with you. And essentially in this game, I want you to say sold or not sold on whether you buy this treatment as viable and why,
So we'll start with the traditional Chinese reflexology. And for those of you who are not familiar, this is the practice of mapping all the organs and joints in the human body, on the soles of your feet. And certain parts of your feet will be massage to relieve pressure on set joints or organs when necessary.
Traditional chinese reflexology [00:23:55] So traditional Chinese reflexology sold, not sold.
Whoa so, I mean, you just mentioned earlier how, you know, the human body's all connected. So if you have shoulder pain, it could STEM from your knee.
saad: I'm not saying they're doing anything about it. I'm not saying it's not accurate. I'm really not the specialist in that, but what I'm saying is why would you specifically work only into food? If someone comes to you with whatever it is, , shoulder pain or neck pain, or, I'm not saying you shouldn't. I think there's probably a whole philosophy behind it. But I know that traditional Chinese medicine and work in the entire body and spirit, like putting yourself in one case where you're just work on the soul is I think very limiting.
Arabic Traditional Hejama or wet cupping [00:24:36] aziz: Okay. So the other one, the Arabic traditional treatment of wet cupping. And again, for those of you who are not familiar. This is the practice where small incisions are made and suction cups are placed on top of these incisions to detox the patient from quote unquote, bad blood.
So sold, not sold.
saad: I would be sold because it's a great tool. I am not sold because unfortunately the Arabic culture has built huge mysticism around it that takes away the scientific and actual, benefits of it.
So, first of all, I'm actually certified as a cupping therapist and I'm going to explain the entire thing. I think the term drama. It doesn't mean necessarily, blood or anything related to blood, but means suction. And it's the fact of using those cups. So systematically doing incision and taking blood, I think is a mistake. Now, I think there is a huge mysticism that has been built around this fact of taking blood out of your body. To the extent that I have seen people literally trying to take as much blood as possible out of your body and like relating that to a form of success in treatment, which is completely wrong. I've seen people coming with cars. After doing, you know, high JAMA sessions, which is completely wrong because you should only poke the skin with a surgical blade, just mildly like touch the skin damage to skin and actually putting the cup on and stretching the skin might take away some drops of blood.
aziz: Well, so what's the idea behind it.
saad: So the problem is the Islamic civilization never had any writing or any actual philosophy behind it. There was just basically a Hadid from the prophet saying, you show, you should use cups to treat yourself. This is a really good treatment. And that's a really good tool.
Now, the only ones that have actual philosophy and actual science behind it are the traditional Chinese medicine where they basically explain that in that way you have three types of cups. You have the wet cup, which is with incisions. You have the dry cup where you put, but you do not do incisions. And you have the moving cup where you put oil in the body, put the cup on and move the cup.
So. The three of them have different, outcome. They are used in different kinds of treatments and for different kinds of pathologies.
Now, if I'm specifically talking about the, like the traditional Chinese medicine philosophy, and there are very little that I know about it because I'm not a specialist in that is taking away. Some blood is when you have what they call heat in a certain part of your body. Now, if I want to translate that towards more Western terms, I would say when you have inflammation and eventually removing some blood and doing the incisions, just to enhance the production of white cells and help recovering from an injury or ache a bit quicker, slightly quicker
so I know they've been using that in traditional Chinese medicine. Now, I think the way. Arabic culture is bringing it to this very reductive, unfortunately, because I think there is a whole science behind it, whole philosophy. I think there is an amazing scope of research that is to be done. And that is, I think, currently being done by certain scientists in the world.
And to give an advice to people that are seeking this treatment. I tell people like cups or tool, needles, acupuncture, needles are a tool, . Hands are tuned. Exercises are a tool. Now I highly recommend people not to look for a certain type of treatments, but for example, if you have shoulder pain, don't say I want to do cupping treatment.
Say I want to go to someone who's really good with shoulder because ultimately he would know what kind of tools using you don't go to a restaurant and say, I want steam things only, you know?
aziz: Like if it wasn't on the menu,
saad: Yeah. the chef spends time to build a menu and to use different tools, you know, different type of ingredients and spices for you to enjoy an actual, really good meal. That's the same thing.
aziz: Well, you specifically don't do that in France because you will get kicked out of that restaurant.
Saad Message To Audience [00:28:46] All right.
What's an important message that you want our audience to take away from our discussion.
saad: I really advice people and I really recommend to start doing more community. Physical activity. Try to hang out with people, go for a walk on the beach. I know there is groups now that are doing like outdoor training and stuff like that. I know there is groups that are cleaning, the beach and everything. Try to do things with your family as well. I, I'm always really happy when I see, you know, some of my friends are like they're taking their parents, their father, or the mother, and just going for a walk, , just like a half an hour, 45 minute work with the family.
I think that's a really good thing. Other than that, in term of like reaching up professionals , I think whenever you have a problem, it's nowadays it's pretty easy to reach out on professionals. And there is tremendous amount of therapists, tremendous amount of , clinics.
Now what I would advise people is try to. Reach out for someone that doesn't only make you dependent. If you go to someone and he just tells you, I'm going to crack your back and crack your neck, you don't have to come back four times a week to do that. And then just passive treatments. I'll tell you, you might just question the guy, just aim for someone that will lead you to active treatment, to do more exercises, and also understand that it's your right to ask questions and to ask your different options. And in that way, you would definitely be able to highlight whoever is, actually putting on an interesting strategy or not.
aziz: Phenomenal. And as always, our audience can reach out to us to get in touch with, sad shreds. Sad. Thank you so much for joining and thank you so much for adding to our communal growth.
saad: Thank you very much. Thank you for inviting me. And I hope to talk to you soon
aziz: we really do appreciate having you on the show and for you to share your voice, your opinions, and your, your aspirations. So thank you.