Feminism: The Professor
Dr. Haneen Ghabra and broadband podcast
Aziz: Hello, and welcome to broadband here at broadband by the philosophy that one needs other human beings to teach them how to be human
our guide for today on this journey of communal actualization is Dr. Haneen Al Ghabra a professor at Kuwait university's department of mass communication, specializing in rhetoric and cultural studies.
Dr. Al Ghabra is also the author of Muslim women and white femininity. She's a devoted daughter and a steadfast intersectional feminist. I want to set the stage for this interview by shining the spotlight on three main points of focus for our dialogue, the first being Dr. Al Ghabra and her unique human journey.
Next, I want to dive deep into the well of knowledge that Dr. Al ghabra holds on the topic of feminism and the nuances that at times escapes the public's perception of the feminist movement. And finally, I want you the listener to be able to walk away from this conversation with a clear definition for feminism and with actionable insights for what and how you can actively participate in the fight for equal rights and opportunities for our sisters, our daughters, and our mothers without further ado.
Hello, Dr. Alva, how are you?
Dr Haneen: Hi, how are you?
Aziz: Yeah, I am much better now that I get to speak with you?
[00:01:18] Your Father's Influence
Aziz: So the best way to start this conversation is with a little lesson, a little bit of a history lesson on . Let's start with Henning, the daughter, you're the daughter of the celebrated scholar analyst and professor of political science. Dr. Sheffield. how much influence did your father have on your academic and professional journey?
Dr Haneen: I think in the beginning, So I've always been in communication more or less. So I remember like in high school I was editor in chief of the high school newspaper. I always wrote poetry. I sang, I was in choir honor choir EMA choir, which is like when you traveled to other countries to sing. So it was really, I had the creative side was already there, but so was the communication side.
And I remember. I didn't feel his influence. Then I felt it when I got older. I think that happens to everyone. When, you know, in your youth, you don't feel it until you get older. But I think when I reached the peak of my career And I was, worked in the private sector for like eight years, and then I went to the public sector and then I was like, okay, I'm a manager in communication.
What else am I going to do? I need to go get my PhD. And that's where I felt it was the influence that was kind of indirect also. Cause I was also always very active during my BA with like social justice issues and. You know, I used to go and protest. I remember after like the second Intifada, having a daughter and everything we all marched to the Capitol.
It was, very similar to the protest now, but it didn't go viral obviously, because social media wasn't so like nascent then and all that.
But what I'm trying to say is I didn't feel it until I was going to get my PhD. And I was like, wow, he's really influenced me. I think I am an activist because of him.
Aziz: And you said you started feeling it during your PhD and you got your PhD from the university of Denver, Denver university. I should say uh, Colorado. means a whole lot to me as well. Cause I'm an alum of the university of Colorado. Uh,
Dr Haneen: Oh, I love Colorado.
Aziz: it's absolutely gorgeous, isn't it?
[00:03:13] The Cultural Shift
Aziz: But. There is Henning, the privileged Kuwaiti woman and heading the foreign Arab student in Colorado. How important was that cultural shift to the way you saw the world?
Dr Haneen: I think what's really important is a lot of people see identity as static. They think identity doesn't move. And that's a huge problem. I see identity scholars actually speaking this way, and I think it's very problematic because your identity changes from minute to minute from hour to hour, from day to day, my interaction with you is going to have a whole. Interaction of identities that will completely change if I leave and I go speak to someone, delivering a product to me by DHL, let's say downstairs, it's completely different interaction. There's different privileges and oppressions that are actually intersecting.
And so being. Privileged, especially after I got my PhD, I felt the privilege more is I feel I'm Kuwaiti. Right. But I could feel less privileged when, when people remind me that I'm not a feeder. Right. Which is also constructed, right. Like identity is constructed anyways. So it's funny, but Kuwaiti privileged come from a good family there. I have all these privileges.
And so what's really scary about this and important is I have to be aware. Of these privileges and how, when I'm speaking to someone that has a less privileged positionality than me. So let's say I'm speaking to someone that's not Kuwaiti, or I'm speaking to someone that's, you know a domestic worker, how am I speaking to them?
Am I speaking with them or for them? I think that's really important.
[00:04:37] What is Feminism?
Aziz: But identity is a huge part of the feminist movement. And I think we're going to get into it lot deeper in this conversation. So let's start. Right. So with feminism, it's an inherently Western term. It's very important that we define it so that you and I and our listeners are speaking the same language. What do you mean by feminism? And what flavor of feminism do you practice?
Dr Haneen: so I'm completely against white liberal feminism. I'll start with that. And tell you why I'll give you the history. so we always borrow from the U S controls, the global media. They control the history. They control textbooks, they control everything. They've also controlled the narrative of feminism. Let's be honest with ourselves. Okay.
And so have the colonizers in general, right? Like if you link it to colonization, I am a British with French and all that, but in general if we learn from the U S right, we have the first movement where women wanted the right to vote.
Then you have the second movement where they're like, no, we're going to learn from the black civil rights movement. We're going to learn from them. And we want our own movement. Right? So this was like sixties, let's say seventies. So they have this movement. What happened is the movement was led by white women. They forgot about their sisters of color. They forgot about all the other marginalized identities.
And so all these people were left out and then the media portrayed it as if it was against men, but there were men that were already involved in the movement and the movement does not harm men. And that's a stereotype that we need to also dismantle.
And so what happened the nineties, there was this third movement called the intersectional. Feminist movement, which is the school that I'm from, the school that I believe can help a lot. And building even issues we have in Kuwait
and intersectional feminism comes from intersectionality. It was a term coined by Kimberle Crenshaw, who basically was actually she's in the field of law. So has nothing to do with communication or with anything. But she basically saw that people were getting defendants and prosecutors were getting a press. They were prosecuting. People based on the color of their skin, that way it was, if your block, oh, you're already going to get arrested. Literally.
And so, Kimberly Crenshaw turned the coin intersectionality, which means that our identities, the intersection of our identities, whether it's race or class or sexuality or education is really different from woman to woman.
And so intersectional feminism looks at these intersections. So I can't just look at myself as a woman. So you're a man and I'm a woman that doesn't work. I'm a Kuwaiti, a privileged woman who has a PhD, but it was also originally Palestinian was also in the, you know I don't know. And you have your own intersections as well, right?
And so the intersection is what can form our lives. So our lived experiences through our identities is what really helps us know what our needs are.
So a Bedouin woman in Kuwait is not going to have the same needs as a Kuwaiti woman. And that's the problem with the feminist movement in Kuwait is that we picked up, I'll take the blame for it too. Everybody has picked up this liberal feminist. And I was, by the way, in 2000, maybe four or five, I was that liberal feminist.
But then I learned intersectional feminism and I learned what intersectionality was. So it's not like you don't, you can't change. Right. But that's only thing I was exposed to. And all the other women here in Kuwait, and that we ha there are a group of intersectional, feminist and amazing group, small, very small group, but they're making strides and we're all working together, but.
The problem with the movements here is it's very privileged. You know, we're talking about harassment when we have deeper issues. Doesn't mean harassment is not important. It's important, but we have deeper issues is that, you know what I mean?
[00:08:08] Bridging the gap between ideologies
Aziz: a hundred percent, a hundred percent. Uh, and it seems like there needs to be some kind of alignment for the movement to actually progress and to expand and hopefully get something done. Do you see that there is some kind of bridge that's being formed by the traditionally white, liberal movement of feminism and the new small group that is intersectional feminism.
Dr Haneen: I see people switching slowly. I see people, you know, they're worried that they're going to be called out for being privileged. But I also feel like you can't have allyship unless you disrupt your privileged by yourself or have people disrupt it for you.
Aziz: it's a very intimate disruption, right? You have to be the one to do it. It's your own paradigm that you have to shake up.
Dr Haneen: well, so when I was in college, when I was doing my PhD during my PhD, I had to take a whole class on that. On disrupting my privilege. And I had the trader, professor and the trainers with her were disrupting our privilege and it was very uncomfortable. would go home crying, but whole point is for you to reflect on your privilege,
I had my students write about it, and if they don't reflect on their privilege, I tell them I'm going to make you rewrite the assignment because it's so much easier to say you're oppressed and this is what's problematic.
I can see I'm oppressed. And I will say I'm oppressed as a woman. and I will, but it's so much harder for me to say that I'm privileged. Nobody wants to say they're privileged because you're actually admitting that you're part of a system that oppresses, no matter how progressive you are,
Aziz: Right. It's easy to play the victim and it's very difficult to be introspective and to reflect on your own, guess, oppressive nature Right. and if you think that you're privileged and you're not even taking into account the domestic workers rights, then are you truly virtuous pro like protester, right?
Dr Haneen: Exactly.
I see that all the time.
[00:09:57] Colonialism and Feminism in Egypt
Aziz: Something that you brushed up on is the effect of colonialism on the spreading of feminism in the Arab world. In the Gulf states, a person who is historically viewed as the first Arab feminist was Qasim Ameen, one of the founders of the Egyptian national movement uh, and Cairo university, he was quoted as saying if adoptions did not modernize along European lines, And if they were unable to compete successfully in the struggle for survival, they would be eliminated. So how has costume and means philosophy of adopting European values, including feminism received in Egypt at the time.
Dr Haneen: So a cost and I mean, the thing with class and my mean is he was your typical colonial feminist.
was this man that was speaking for a woman. He basically. So, so if you read like Layla Ahmed's work, who I'm actually in love with, I love her work. I love every single book she's read. I think she's a genius.
She basically says that, you know, the colonizers came in first. Italian education was free. And Egypt colonization happened. you know, they started actually capitalizing it, so it became like this capitalistic industry. Now people can't, some people can't afford it.
And then basically they started telling. The elite. Right? Cause they're not going to give a country to the poor. They said, if you were going to leave. Okay. You know, and I'm saying it like a story just to make it simple, but there was this unspoken, like, please take off your head job. Right. Take off your job. we need to modernize you.
Right. And that comes with colonization and modernization and capitalism and liberalization. So like, we need to modernize you. So there was this whole unspoken thing. it wasn't like everybody's took off their job. No, but. It happened a lot in the upper class. So what happened was this backlash from the lower classes and the middle was kind of like stuck in between.
So you have these women Elliot, you know taking off the job, but you also have this, like. Heck, you know, like revenge against the west for colonizing us. So you have this also the more like conservative, like I'm going to keep the hijab on. Right.
So classic. I mean, it was one of those, you know, elite, like colonial feminist him. And there was another completely slipped my mind, but it's okay. It'll come to me. And they were championed for feminism, but it was really not helping anyone, but the elite.
And so they didn't have a critique style and it's a beautiful critique. I actually, I speak about it in my book. Also write about it in my book, but so I think it's important because the question you're asking is an excellent question because this set the stage for feminism in the region, because we started borrowing from this colonial feminism, which is also white feminism.
[00:12:36] Negative impacts of Colonialism on Arab Feminists
Aziz: right. But, but it does at the same time, from what classima mean mentioned about Egyptians adopting European values or being eliminated, it seems that one of the negative effects of colonialism is the belief that your own culture is backwards and inferior. So how much, how much of Arab feminists advocating for feminism truly to liberate women rather than to kind of be aligned with European values?
Dr Haneen: A lot. And I think class, I mean, is a good example of this because when he wrote it, the liberation of women to Hayden, what it was celebrated as feminism, but he was reflecting the internalization of the colonizer. So what's really important here is there's a really thin line between internalizing this colonial narrative as colonial feminism, but also trying to fight for your own rights within your country.
but as, As a feminist, it's an issue because how do I fight. Whiteness and colonization and then putting their hands and meddling in our business. Right. When we have our own feminists. that can do that job. But also how do I tackle my own issues without outside help? There's a thin line.
Sometimes you need to cross the line, sometimes you don't. and you feel guilty when you crossed the line. I think that's another thing not for the colonial feminists that they'll cross the line all the time. I'm talking about our feminists,
we feel guilty because we're like, oh my God, how did I speak to the UN, how did I speak to the EU? How did I know sometimes we need to do that. But we feel guilty when we do it because we feel like, are we internalizing the narrative? Are we this? I mean, it just happened to me actually a couple of weeks ago where I just had a phone call And felt guilty
Aziz: So did you feel guilty because you felt like this movement in your country, in the Arab world should be under your control and your control alone. It should be like an intimate relationship between you and this movement.
Dr Haneen: Um, I think it's because we knew what our issues are and the problem is when we allow the west to intervene, they hijack our issues instead of helping us. So they speak for us and says, speaking with us. you feel so much oppression. And I think this is really important. We feel so much oppression as women that we have this urge to be like, you know what, come in, save us because our men don't really care about giving us our rights. So there's also that, you know,
[00:14:51] Return of the veil
Aziz: Yeah. Yeah. So we talked about later Akhmed, writes about the veil about the hijab, about the niqab, but these objects that seem to carry a lot of social and political meaning. And for those of you who don't know that I've met, she is a Harvard divinity professor. She's the author of women and gender and Islam.
And she argued that the return of the veil in both Western and Arab societies is a clear sign of the reaction or the reactions to nine 11 attacks. what does she mean by that? Dr. Henson?
Dr Haneen: so later traces the veil from, I don't know what's here. Well, actually, even from colonization until like, til she published the book was, I don't remember when it was published, but I think it was 2004, eight, but anyways,
so she traces the veil. She says in the oil boom years, when we discovered oil, there was this whole, like. Thankful thankfulness. So you have this woman putting the hijab on, she speaks, she gives you eight, nine different interpretations. It's so beautiful. And then she speaks about after September 11th, there was a number of women that were, taking it off because they were scared because they were getting discriminated against and they were getting bullied in the U S especially for being Muslim and wearing a hijab. But then you had another bunch that were angry that they were being discriminated against. So they wore the hijab. And so she gives you all these different interpretations and they're very deep interpretation. I'm giving you just surface points right now.
Aziz: Yeah, and I would encourage all our listeners to read women and gender in Islam. She talks about how the veil or the hijab is used as a object to protest and liberation and
Dr Haneen: oh, so the Vail one was quiet revolution. She does the one where she gives you eight, nine interpretations, women, gender and Islam, by the way. I'm so happy you brought that up because it's really important to look at feminism From an Islamic framework. And that's what she does so beautifully. And because I feel like a lot of Islamic feminists are discriminated against and they're not welcomed into the feminist community and that's not okay. I've actually even had to like right. So tribal feminists you know, from,
Aziz: From yeah. From the tribes
Dr Haneen: They also get discluded. And I think that's really important because they have to work within their, spheres. And I think that's important because there are an amazing Sonic feminist amazing and amazing uh, ministers are working within their, Bedouin communities to dismantle all these oppressions that they're facing.
[00:17:11] Oppresson in Iran, Turkey, and France?
Aziz: Okay. And so, Let's talk about oppression because historically Iran and Turkey and currently friends have all regulated. And in my opinion, oppressed the way women dress by banning the hijab. And now Iran, I think also oppresses and regulates women's lives by enforcing the hijab or the veil. So what effect do these bands have on woman's psyche? And their attitude with agencies.
Dr Haneen: I think this is a really important question as well, because it's also, it's kind of like we're stuck in this double patriarchy. France is telling you to take off the hijab. But also, it on is telling you to cover as an example, and other countries, and so women have no agency. Your, your agency is completely stripped of you because you have to basically either take it off or put it on depending on the country.
First of all, we should have the right to choose whether to cover or not to cover. And so again, that's the whole like Western narrative versus Eastern narrative, right?
So you have these men, patriarchal Arab men, or Muslim men telling you to cover. And then you have this Western Men telling you to uncover, did they ever ask us what we want? And so I think this is the most important question because we have no agency at that point.
[00:18:23] Intermission
Aziz: Hey guys, this is the part of the podcast where people usually tell you to buy this product or subscribed to this service, but we don't have any sponsors yet. So we'll sell ourselves. Instead. We have four simple asks one, please subscribe. If you haven't already. To share the podcast, share it with your friends, share with your family and share it with a stranger. Start a conversation, three, check out the show notes. You can find all the references that we've already made and are about to make on there. And for engage with us on Instagram and email, enjoy the rest of the show.
[00:18:55] How to shake up society?
Aziz: And these are some fundamental issues in a gigantic institution that we need to address. But it also kind of seems like a societal issue. How can we shake up the society to completely abandon these in my opinion, backwards, mentalities and norms.
Dr Haneen: Well, I think it starts with awareness. The problem is like, we keep raising awareness, but then nothing gets done. And, you know, like We raise awareness. We go, we speak to some on P and then nothing gets done. we need action. Right.
So. It's the same thing with women and abuse, right? There's all these abuse cases happening. there was, there was a dune woman that was being abused. She can't leave her house because she doesn't have a job. She can't get married. She lives in this tiny house. The living conditions are bad. Right. The conditions aren't gonna make it easier on the men either. Right. And So it's spilling over onto her as a woman. And so these are when I'm talking about, intersections, But there's a bunch of things. Abuse is normalized in our society.
Aziz: Hmm. So Can you expand on what you mean by abuse is normalized in our society.
Dr Haneen: So we're taught to be silent, not to go to the, mock flood, because if you go to the police station, it's going to look bad. Right. You're going to the police station. You're, basically saying that your husband hits you and that's an issue. Right. And then you have to go to the doctor and then, that's it. society. knows. And so we're conditioned, especially in collective societies, I all collective societies.
Even if you go to like Latina, Latino societies, there's this huge normalization abuse. Like even within the family, even sexual abuse, it's normalized. It's okay. If the uncle will abuse a little boy or UK, and we're not talking about only girls, I'm talking to girls And boys, right. And then they're taught to not talk about it.
[00:20:40] How to support the voiceless women?
Aziz: Yeah. But, okay. So there are all these people that are marginalized. You're talking about maybe little boys, little girls you're talking about, but doing woman, you're talking about. Wives. Right. and a lot of relationships in Kuwait and they can't speak for themselves.
So what's the best way to support the, at times voiceless women, uh, domestic workers, whatever right. Who's struggling, and their struggles are often ignored by the mainstream feminist movement. So what's the best way to support them without speaking on their behalf and completely taken over the message.
Dr Haneen: Well, see, that's the dilemma too, because if you integrate them into the movement, they might get hurt. So let's say like, okay, let's bring some domestic workers into the movement. Right. It would have to be underground kind of. Cause you don't want to, like, you don't want them to get deported. Same thing with, with doing an issue, you don't want to call them out, you know, so you have to ask them what they need instead of speaking for them.
So the first thing is to ask them what they need is to actually sit with them and see what their needs are and then ask how you can help. And I think what we're doing is the opposite. We think we can speak for them, but we have to be into the committee.
So I'll give you another example of this whole like intersecting oppression. So the dune woman, she marries a Kuwaiti and she has four kids. He beats her up to the point where she gets a concussion. She's hospitalized. She goes back to him. Why does she go back then where else is she going to go?
She's already living in the most oppressive conditions you could ever think. And that that's the politics of death. Which was a term also developed by Michelle. Uh, my Bombay Akilah Bamba, which is Negro politics, right? The politics of death you're living like you're dead. right. And I think this is a situation with the Bedouin and with what's happening with the Palestinians is you're living you're subjugated to live like you're dead. So the only way to free yourself is to escape. Death is to literally die, right? So you have suicides, you have suicide bombers, you have blah, blah, blah.
Aziz: I see. Wow. Wow. Mind. Blown. All right. So I mean A lot of listeners may not know what B doing means because we have listeners that aren't from Kuwait, but, but doing literally translates to without, and these are people, there's a group of people that are stateless or without passport or without citizenship.
And they've been a part of our society here in Kuwait for decades. And they've been very active and contributing to our society. At the same time. they don't have quality citizenship.
[00:23:02] Allyship and its role in the women movement
Aziz: And so All right. So this is one thing.
Now let's talk about allyship, right? So if everyone is too concerned about what they have the right to talk about, are the important issues ever going to be discussed? How can we ensure that we communicate with the marginalized people to get their needs and act on them immediately?
Dr Haneen: Well, it's much more complicated than that. So like, for example, We need to ally, even within our community. So let's imagine like a circle of Kuwaiti woman within that circle, there will be already be dynamics of privilege and oppression. And so how am I aware of what I'm saying to this person who I think has less Kuwaiti than me?
Right. And so you can feel that happening. You could have a Kuwaiti that's originally, you know, supposedly Kuwait to Kuwaiti Kuwaiti, that's you know tribal Kuwaiti, Palestinian, when you put these women altogether, those dynamics are already at play.
So if we can't within us ally, which we need to right. Then how are we going to LA with other intersecting identities? And so I think That's the most important thing when we're speaking of allyship,
[00:24:07] What's your Dream for the feminist movement?
Dr Haneen: Right?
Aziz: Yeah. All right. Well, okay. So not much has changed for the feminist movement in a hundred years, if you, if you really look at it. So what's your dream for the movement for the next hundred years to actually get some, actionable items ticked off the list.
that
Dr Haneen: So I feel like the citizenship one is really big, especially for kids because I'm seeing families being torn apart from this issue. Right. And I feel like it will help a little bit with the Bedouin issue for the Bedouin kids that have quitting mothers. So it's like killing two birds with one stone. I would then tackle abuse in all forms. Right.
We need laws to protect our health. And I think that's an issue, We need a quota and the parliament, if you want to talk about politics, right? So you have health, you have politics. We had a quota in the parliament. We illegally, we need to get rid of article one, eight, two, and one, five, three, right? Citizenship. We need citizenship for our kids, right. for our spouses, but especially our kids,
[00:25:06] How to support the women rights movement
Aziz: Okay. And so there are these there, honestly, it sounds like there needs to be a lot of work on a institutional level. There needs to be a lot of work on a societal level. So how can men and women alike feminists listening to this episode, support the woman fighting for equal rights and make sure that they feel safe uh, in, in their own skin and also feel safe in their investment.
Dr Haneen: it's being an ally. And, you know, standing with women, right?
whenever they want to protest, whenever they want to speak, whenever they have an issue, it's speaking about these issues, but it's also asking them what do they need?
And so whether it's passing citizenship, whether it's abuse and the lack of stuff we have for abuse here, our shelters and everything, whether it's legal rights, whether it's doing an issue, whether it's all these there's other marginalized communities also, which I'd love to talk about, which I count right now, but how do we stand together and help? Not just women, even other marginalized identities,
Aziz: yeah. Like domestic workers, et Tetra. You know, the point of having this conversation is to spread I guess not only just a message, but to spread takeaways and action items and ways to get people to, you know, change and change incrementally.
[00:26:19] Important Message
Aziz: So what's an important message that you want our audience to take away from our discussion.
Dr Haneen: I would say that I hope if you have privileged that you'll find the space to reflect that if you have oppression that you'll find a space to heal,
Aziz: for words by the powerful Dr. Henning. I love that. Yes.
Okay. So the people who are familiar with you and your body of work are very comfortable in calling you a world-class performer in your field. And it's something that I do very often with you. So I'm sure that didn't come by accident.
[00:26:52] Habit you are grateful for
Aziz: What's a habit that you're grateful for developing in your journey. Uh, One that you may attribute to your success.
Dr Haneen: I think like looking at charts of privilege and oppression and mapping out your privileges, you know? So I think that's a good takeaway. It's not a habit that I have, but it's something like it's, Nate's now in me, but like, what are your privileges in terms of. Education nationality, accent, language, religion. What are your privileges? But what are your impressions? Right.
You can even list them down
Aziz: Right.
Dr Haneen: they will change geographically.
[00:27:26] Books that inspired you
Aziz: Okay. Which book fiction or non-fiction inspired you to have a call to action on a personal or career level?
Dr Haneen: I would say the books that inspired me now, but didn't inspire me to call to action, but I wouldn't say one of my favorite books. bell hooks all about love and bell hooks something feminism.
I love those books, but what inspired me was not a book. What inspired me to go into intersectional feminism was my advisor. Brendan's at Khalifa. She is also a walking book. So her work is amazing. And I think she changed my life. She completely changed my life. She taught me what it meant to be critical. And I think critical of course doesn't mean. Being negative. Right? But being critical of power structure is being critical of rhetoric.
She taught me how to bring in the performativity, right? So I do a lot of performance work. And in some of my research where I write poetry onto the paper where I can get my creative side out and she taught me so much.
She taught me how to teach with love, which I think is the most important thing. Because when you teach with love, which bell hooks always also says, right? Is when you teach your students with love, they actually respond. It's like a magic wand, their respond. It doesn't mean you're going to say, I love you.
No, I'm saying you are nurturing them in a way that you're giving them love by showing them that you care about teaching them. I care. And I want to teach you and they automatically respond. Ridiculous how responsive they can be. I think this is the most powerful thing she taught me besides of course, teaching me how to write like a pro.
And so I could go on forever and that's what inspired me. It wasn't really a book. Then it became a book. There are books that I love, like the ones I mentioned, right?
Aziz: Fantastic. Um,
You honestly give us a lot of fuel. A lot of fuel in multiple ways feel to want to participate and be active members of the feminist community and fuel to be more inclusive of people doesn't necessarily only have to be women.
We have been doing, we have domestic workers, we have children, we have people in disabilities. So I truly thank you from the bottom of my heart for expanding my paradigm and for doing it for our listeners. I truly appreciate you. Thank you so much for joining our discussion and our dialogue and I'm grateful for you. So thank you.
Dr Haneen: and he know I'm grateful for the questions. The questions were great.
Aziz: Listen, I wanted to show you that I appreciated you by writing. Good questions. Yeah.
Dr Haneen: Thank you though. Thank you so much for having me.
Aziz: This podcast will now be possible without your support. So please subscribe to our podcast, share it with your friends and family. Check out the show notes for any references made and engage with us on Instagram and email. Thank you.